A long time ago I used Westside methods with some success,  but I never felt like I got anything out of speed work. I stopped doing it and then realized that, for me, there were better ways to train. I've heard Mike and others on here say that you can throw in speed work on occasion. Well, my question is, how do you know when it is appropriate to throw in speed work? Do you feel like you have to reach a certain level (classification) before it can be a big help? If it helps, I lift without equipment. The thing is, with or without speed work I've never felt really fast or really slow. I've never thought it helped me because I didn't get stronger doing it. Then there are others who swear by it. For me, 185 moved faster when my bench pressing got stronger, but I know some say that that is not the same as what is supposed to happen with speed work. It's not something I'm stressing over; just something I'm curious about.

Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated. Thanks, everyone.

My thoughts are, that "speed" in terms of bar movement is (almost) irrelevant in this context. It has lead to the situation that many trainees make the 'highest bar speed' a primary goal to achieve, instead of just a possible indicator of generating optimum force.

In order to obtain this visible high speed of movement, they need to use loads far to low to still have any carryover to the ME spectrum of lifting. No wonder the many complaints of having none effect at all...Speed is a very poorly chosen word within the context of: "Executing a lift in such a way it positively contributes to max strength attempts. In fact this has not much to do with speed at all!

Instead, it has anything to do with neuromotorically moving submaximal loads in such a way it mimics the optimal activation of MU's/fibres as needed for max effort lifts. (without the same neurological drain of ME work as a big advantage)In practice this can only be done with submaximal loads that are rather close to real ME poundages (75-90% 1RM). Much closer than what is often used in WSB protocols (45-60% 1RM) even taken the use of bands/gear and the lifters level of development into account.

In my mind there's really no need to separately define and schedule 'speed' days. On the contrary, this only leads to distraction and confusion. What lifters need is to integrate the correct focus/attitude with regards to the mental intention behind performing the lifts. It's all about the 'will' of executing each post warmup lift, with maximum explosiveness and acceleration. The description of the CAT principle is an excellent guideline for this.

Hey J, I just recently evaluated this issue as well and in the RTS Manual, Mike says that if you aren't moving 75-85% explosively, you probably have a speed deficit and need to work that aspect some.  I might not be exact on those numbers.  Double check the manual.

harpep: If what you say is true, how do you explain the success that many people DO have when utilizing DE work as part of a properly-designed & implemented Westside template?  They often seem to use fairly low percentages.  I think a lot of it has to do with how the REST of your training looks, not just the loads or methods used on DE day.  Additionally, it also depends heavily on what type of equipment you use (e.g., multiply vs. raw). 

Related to Mike's question, and I've been thinking about this thread for a bit anyhow.  I do want to say that my observations / theory are based upon my n=1 experience only.

I did a day/week of dynamic effort work when I was getting back into training, so, there I was a beginner.  I think it served a useful purpose:  I needed more volume on the main exercises to learn what I was doing.  However, doing more volume at a heavier weight and just grinding out the reps would have pushed me into overtraining.  So DE work gave me a nice way to have my cake and eat it too.

As far as what I focused on:  I focused on bar speed, plain & simple.

"what physiological traits are developed by doing DE work?  How would you determine if this was something you need?"

 I think DE could provide for one more stimulus through which the same goal can be achieved,max power production.The beginning of the concentric movement is overloaded by inertia loaded moderate weight instead of limit weight.

 Determining if it was something you need could be fairly easy :At the end of the training cycle containing a DE day you assess the result on the 1RMs of the powerlifts,so in essence it's judged by the results it provides,as with all methods.

Thanks for bumping this topic.  I meant to chime in, but since my question didn't spur a flurry of discussion, I forgot about it.

I'd say DE work is an extremely specialized tool for a powerlifter that most won't need.  Power output has very little to do with Powerlifting sport results.  The key is force.  Force-velocity curves show the muscles produce the maximum amount of force at a velocity of zero (i.e. when the opposing force of the weight equals the maximum force output of the muscles).  So training at high velocities will not produce peak force.  There is simply not enough time for the tension to be generated in the muscle.

So who would DE work benefit?  I am still looking for that one.  I know some athletes that it would help, but they aren't powerlifters.  I think in many programs, it results in technique practice and active rest more than anything else.  Nevermind the fact that the gyms that popularized the technique rarely use it as written.

I disagree with you about how to judge whether or not you need DE work.  What you describe is the trial and error method.  To me, it's just too slow.  If you do a cycle and improve your results, that just shows that you stumbled on something correctly -- not that it will be successful next time.  On the other hand, understanding physiology and assessing physiological needs allows you to be proactive in prescribing training tools.  You see problems and correct them.  Though it isn't foolproof, it's much more efficient than trial and error.

From personal experience i agree totally with your view.

DE work boils down to deloading half of the range of motion (and thus deloading half of the total workout workload)and technique work. Personally it didn't work on my team's throwing performances either,so if the throws should be one of the sports this should work well on i must be missing something.

In fact,i've been trying for some time now to find a way to overload the bottom of the lifts more than the top in order to work more on the stretch reflex and thus "power production" and force.

I agree once more that any success should be seen in full context within a programme and isn't guaranteed to work as well every single time.Sometimes though ,through trial and error athletes experimenting have found new and efficient ways of training and performing the scientists did decades to confirm as useful.The ideal of course would be an experienced athlete with scientific background ...

Perhaps there should be room for 1-2 exercises per cycle (especially "off season") worked a bit differently just to test new ideas not to mention refreshing the mind as well ?

Yes, I agree with that.

As far as overloading the bottom...
The regular contest lifts do that pretty well from a mechanical standpoint.  Then there are pauses and so forth.  However, it would be hard to beat jumps in terms of development of a stretch reflex.